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  • A Hidden Story

    Sunday, Oct 14, 2007 6:50PM / Standard Entry / Members only
    17 comments

    I wanted to address a certain controversy surrounding my former Sifu, Wong Jack Man (for those of you who don't know, he's the kung fu Grandmaster Bruce Lee fought back in '64).  Wong Sifu retired back in 2005 and I hadn’t Googled his name for quite a while until recently.  When I did, I was astounded at how many hits I got.  There was a marked increase in the number of threads and posts in the many martial arts forums out there.  To say that much of this recent buzz is, in part, my doing might sound like the ranting and raving of some self-deluded, egomaniac.  But it might very well be true.  You see, a few years ago I began discussing this famous confrontation on Kung Fu Magazine’s on-line forum.  I also caused some waves on the Fighting Arts.com Forum.  I didn’t realize it at the time, but I had been more vocal about my opinions on this confrontation than any of Wong Sifu’s students ever had.  It must have been the fact that I was actually one of Wong Jack Man’s students that got me so much attention.  Both of these forums have members throughout the world.  Although this particular battle has always had its place in the Bruce Lee legend, it wasn’t discussed as much back then (2003-2004).  Most people with any passing interest in Bruce Lee were happy to accept the version of what happened in Ron Cohen’s, “Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story.”  This movie was, for the most part, pure fantasy.  It was also one of the main reasons I, being a student of this reclusive master, had to say something in his defense (ironically, it was the scene “depicting” this match in “Dragon” that had originally sparked my interest in Wong Jack Man and his fight with Bruce Lee).

    I have to admit something: Wong Sifu was adamant about me not saying anything about him to the public at all.  So, naturally, I was nervous about getting into some of these heated on-line debates.  There was always the chance that it would get back to him.  “Don’t involve me with any magazines, movies, newspapers or anything,” he once told me.  I remember wanting to tell him, “But Sifu, don’t you realize, the world thinks you are a villain!  Do you have any idea what people are saying about you!?”  As an old-school Grandmaster from China, he didn’t bother with martial arts periodicals and he didn’t even surf the web.  Besides, he had already tried to stem the tide.  Back in the eighties he took Linda Lee Caldwell to court over her slanderous remarks about him in her biography.  She had painted this image of Lee as the only Chinese person ever brave enough to bring kung fu to westerners; the first non-racist kung fu master to teach the “quilo”.  She partly based this false belief around the Wong Jack Man fight.  Of course, Wong Sifu lost his battle with her.  During the court case they had ascertained that he was a “public figure” so Linda Lee and Concord Moon could say anything they wanted about him (there was a similar case involving Carol Bernett just before this where they came to the same verdict).  To him, it was as if Linda Lee and her cohorts were allowed to lie about him. 

    You see, the conflict that he had had with Bruce Lee was NOT about racism at all.  Wong Sifu has always been glad to teach anyone of any race.  Among the noteworthy non-Chinese people he has taught there’s Peter Ralston (the only westerner to win at the International Chinese Games in 1976) and Brent Hamby (the 1999 USAWKF National Champion).  If that's not enough proof that Wong Jack Man is not a racist, then I offer myself as proof.  I'm as white as they come and I was learning kung fu under his watchful eye for several years.  Linda Lee herself of course, perpetuated this myth.  Now, to say that Linda Lee Caldwell did this because she is a shameless materialist who has helped to build a cottage industry around Bruce Lee for her own profit, might not be completely fair.  The arguments and conversations that were taking place between Wong Sifu, Bruce Lee, and their associates would have been unintelligible to her, since, she couldn’t speak Cantonese.  Also, the people who showed up at Lee’s studio on Broadway Ave. in Oakland were not part of any “committee” or the like.  They were just a bunch of guys who were friends with Wong Sifu and David Chin at the time.

    As for the fight itself, it is clear to me (and many others, since there is so much buzz about this conflict) that it was not just an easy three-minute victory for Lee.  I could probably write a book about the evidence and reasons why I don’t think so.  The fact that that this particular conflict marked the genesis of Bruce Lee’s Jeet Kune Do, proves to me that Bruce Lee himself didn’t just consider this bout an easy win.  To say that it was because of a relatively easy victory over a renowned Chinese Grandmaster that Bruce Lee would denounce Wing Chun and call it "ineffective", is absurd to me.  It’s worth noting that, while Bruce Lee was alive, he never actually said that he "beat Wong Jack Man”.  He had a big ego and he liked to talk trash, but he couldn't bring himself to mention Wong by name.  Why wouldn’t he if he had beat him?  And why didn’t he answer the challenge to have a public match after Sifu Wong had his side of the story printed in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a San Francisco publication at the time?  Why did martial arts promoter Ming Lum, after seeing Wong Sifu the next day at his work, state that he saw no injuries on Wong except for a scratch above his left eye?   Why, my friends?  It’s because Bruce Lee didn’t “win” this fight.  Officially, Wong and the other eyewitnesses who were around at the time (excluding Linda Lee), have maintained that the fight was a draw.  David Chin recently came out in Kung Magazine saying this and one other witness, a man by the name of Bill Chen, has also said as much.  I have my own opinions on the fight that I won’t share here.  In part, because one of my Si-Hings scared the crap out of me by telling me not to get in the way of the Bruce Lee money machine or start talking too much smack, or else I’d end up being murdered like Bruce and his son, Brandon. 

    If I were to entertain the thought that such conspiracy theories were real, I would announce to whatever unseen mafia forces there might be behind all of this, that the truth behind this fight shouldn’t be seen as making Bruce Lee look bad.  Why would it?  I’ve been a fan of Bruce Lee movies since I was a wee lad.  So was every kid in my Karate class back when I was 12 years old.  I have come to the realization that, if it weren’t for this particular conflict, Bruce would never have become famous.  He would never have developed his own, more unique way of fighting.  He would have remained just another Wing Chun fighter and he never would have delved into other arts like Western Boxing, Fencing or Tae Kwon Do.  Along with other Chinese styles, such as Choy Lay Fut, it’s been said (and there is evidence that I've seen) that he learned some of Wong Sifu’s own style, Buck Pai Siu Lum kung fu.  He felt like he needed higher kicks for the movies, and this style  would have delivered.  It was only after he absorbed what he liked from all of these other styles that he began kicking his way to stardom.  Hell, if you follow its development, it can even be argued that kickboxing wouldn’t have fully developed into what it is without Lee and his quest for a new and better martial art.  

    Arguing about all of this stuff with JKD practitioners and Bruce Lee worshippers on any of the many forums out there no longer interests me.  I’ve come to realize that, as long as Linda Lee is willing to maintain her official statement on the fight that took place between these two men back in 1964, there’s always going to be a lot of confusion and mystery for a lot of people when it comes to this fight.  Sifu Wong has always been a very reclusive and private man.  So any more specific information on the event will probably never come to light.  At this point I would just be happy if everyone was clear that the reasons for the incident were not because Wong Jack Man is a racist.  As far as the outcome they can think whatever they want.  That being said, I would also just like it to be known that I’m not trying to say Bruce Lee sucked or anything like that.  The great Wong Jack Man himself never said that.  Wong Sifu always maintained that Bruce Lee was very good.  He didn’t beat him, but he was very good.
    http://kungfu.net/brucelee.html

Entry comments (17)

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  • cornerhands
    posted on Saturday, Aug 23, 2008 12:53PM [Report]
    Al Dacascos once told us that in a fight if you knock somebody out, but in the process happen to scrape your knuckle,  you lose.

    It was Wolf Man Jack, er, Wrong Jack Man, ah, that is to say, it was Wong, Jack-Man who fell into the furniture, not Bruce Lee.  It was Wong, Jack-Man, who got the scratch above his eye, not Bruce Lee.

    Albert Einstein once said, there is no sense in fighting with an idiot.  First, he will drag you down to his level, then he will beat you with experience.

    It's too bad you couldn't have just come up with the name of that alleged theatre.

    It's also a shame that sneaky, loud mouth, David Chin won't simply show us a copy of the pretty, little, ornate scroll he conned Jack into signing.   Since he went public with his contradictory accounts, the least he could do to dispel any misconceptions would be to reproduce the document, and show it to the world.  Then the Lee family would no longer have to feel bad for Jack, and show their copy as well.
  • siu lum fighter
    posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 1:19PM
    Also, in response to the comment before last, in the traditional, formal rules of challenge matches between Chinese schools and sifus, the loser is expected to close his school and move out of the area (or accept the winner as his sifu).  Usually, the loser would've been humiliated enough to not want to stick around.  After this fight, that's exactly what Bruce Lee did.  In Linda Lee's biography she says how Bruce was depressed and down on himself after this fight.  She said she had to "comfort him" on the back porch after the fight.  The truth for all to see is that If Bruce Lee had won he wouldn't have been acting that way.  He wouldn't have called William Cheung and told him Wing Chun is "ineffective" and he wouldn't have closed his school and moved.  Wong Sifu has so much integrity that he would've closed his school if he had let a guy like Bruce Lee beat him.  Bruce Lee was not as highly respected in the martial arts community as Sifu Wong.  He had only been training in Wing Chun for ten years.  Sifu Wong had been a serious martial artist all of his life, receiving formal training since he was about 7 years old.  Sifu Wong was learning, practicing, and using high level martial arts while Bruce Lee was learning how to cha cha dance.  

    The point is, Wong Jack Man was so much better than Bruce.  If he had wanted to he could have ended Bruce more than a few times during that fight, but he just wanted to have a sportsmanly match.  He didn't really have anything against Bruce Lee.  But can't you just see Bruce getting super enraged and pissed off to the point of rushing Sifu Wong like a mad man and trying anything he could to beat him, even after Sifu Wong tried to make his point over and over again?  Wong Jack Man would've had to kill Bruce Lee to get him to stop.  THAT'S the reality of the situation, not all of these tall tales and nonsense.
  • cornerhands
    posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 3:35AM [Report]
    Wong alledges that he issued the challenge to Lee, in response to general remarks made at a Chinatown theatre.  Does anybody know the name of that theatre, it's exact address, and the date of that supposed event?

    Are there any witnesses who were there, who can corroborate Wong's assertion?
  • cornerhands
    posted on Saturday, Apr 19, 2008 3:13AM [Report]
    It was so brave of David Chin, to get Wong Jack Man to sign the challenge, and then go over to Bruce Lee's home, taking most the entire gang, to hand him the scroll, in front of Bruce's new wife, and then deny that the terms of the challenge, were what he (David Chin, himself), actually, wanted.

    See what comedic characters, David and Jack really are? They go to such, elaborate, lengths, of traditional, formality, but when Bruce Lee actually accepted their, formal, traditional, challenge, literally, in the traditional, formal, manor, those brave, classical, warriors, all of a sudden start begging to establish, safe, tournament, rules.

    Bruce Lee showed up for the fight, and according to Wong Jack Man, Bruce Lee tried to kill him. Why would Bruce take Linda with him to the fight, if he truly believed that he would have to kill or be killed? Strange how nobody got hurt, except for the tiny, scratch, above the eye, on Wong Jack Man. It must have been pretty funny, people coming up to Wong, Jack-man: "Hey Jack, how'd you get that scratch?" "You're lucky you didn't lose an eye."

    David Chin states, uncategorically, that Wong, Jack-Man, fell into a display case , as if, totally by accident. Does David Chin mean to imply, that the best, fighter, that Chinatown, had to offer, is clumsy, or is that the way, that Wong Jack Man, always practices?

    David Chin has referred to the event, as a "publicity stunt", however, it was David Chin who delivered the challenge, which supposedly was issued by Wong Jack Man. If the challenge was a publicity stunt, then who was the publicity, supposed to be for?


    http://www.usadojo.com/articles/keeping-secrets.htm
    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=621
    http://www.lakungfu.com/kungfusifujackmanwong.html
    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=661
    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=661
    http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=3999
    http://books.google.com/books?id=2NAuMRjSUSIC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=scroll,+challenge,+bruce+lee&source=web&ots=dgybRJ7Atv&sig=YtHDrXm2rWqikwbJb53UgdAYvRA&hl=en#PPA53,M1
  • cornerhands
    posted on Friday, Apr 11, 2008 3:32AM [Report]
    Whatever critics there may be or may have been, of Bruce Lee's teaching precious, secret, Chinese Kung-fu, to gwailos, and whatever the terms and conditions of that unpublished, written challenge to Bruce Lee, by Wong Jack Man, actually were, and whatever actually did, or did not transpire, during that fight between those two, it may be significant to note, that subsequent to that event, Bruce Lee did develop a new, American Kung-fu, based upon principals of Western boxing and fencing, and including, Korean kicks.  Bruce Lee did in fact, stop teaching Chinese Kung-fu, to whites, while Wong Jack Man, eventually did start sharing, classical Chinese Kung-fu, with Caucasians.

    Perhaps, in some way, both men felt that they had lost something, in that fight.
  • cornerhands
    posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 4:05AM [Report]
    Wong Jack Man, issued the challenge to Bruce Lee.
    Bruce Lee backed Wong Jack Man, up into the wall, where
    Wong stumbled into the furniture. Wong wanted to save
    face, so refused to accept defeat. Bruce Lee said,
    that the fight was finished.

    1. David Chin delivered the challenge to Bruce Lee.
    What were the written words of that challenge?

    2. What words were exchanged, between David Chin
    and Bruce Lee, when David Chin delivered that challenge?

    3. Why would Bruce Lee take Linda with him to the fight,
    if he truly believed that he would have to kill or be killed?

    4. What discussion took place at the venue for that fight,
    between Bruce Lee, and Wong Jack Man?

    If Wong Jack Man was pissed, that Bruce Lee was teaching
    gwailos, and Bruce Lee had a white girl friend, who eventually
    had become his wife, I suspect that the challenge and dialogue
    would have covered that issue. Al Dacascos was the only student
    of Wong Jack Man, at that time, who was not fully Chinese
  • cornerhands
    posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 11:41AM [Report]
    Al Dacascos, is of course, American of mostly, Filipino, descent, from Hawaii, and truly a most, tactful, gentleman.
  • cornerhands
    posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 11:32AM [Report]
    "In this tight group, I was the ONLY, PART-Chinese, in a group of the original ten members." --Al Dacascos

    "Our focus was to learn the Northern style of Kung-Fu
    called Northern Sil-lum or Northern Pak-Pai from Professor
    Wong Jack Man, the person mentioned as the Kung-fu Instructor
    that fought Bruce Lee in that controversial fight between the
    two back in Oakland in the early 1960’s." --Al Dacascos
  • cornerhands
    posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 11:29AM [Report]
    Gwailo?

    Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,....
  • cornerhands
    posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 11:19AM [Report]
    from:
    KEEPING SECRETS
    Grandmaster David Chin's Legacy of Hop Gar Rebels
    and Guang Ping Tai Chi Revolutionaries
    by Gene Ching
    USADojo

    Kung fu masters descended upon the Gum Shan, aka the Gold Mountain that was San Francisco. David Chin was right in the middle, living and studying in the city from '62 to '75. Being in Chinatown at that time, Chin was an eyewitness to some of the most controversial challenge matches in American history, including one involving his own master Kuo Lien Ying (who challenged Chen Man Ching) and the most debated duel of all, Bruce Lee's fight with Wong Jack Man. While Kuo vs. Chen isn't relevant here (and might be a subject for a future article), Lee vs. Wong is irresistible because it was allegedly about keeping secrets. According to popular lore, Lee was challenged for teaching kung fu to non-Chinese. Chin's role in this fight was significant. "It ended up that I became the messenger boy and took the (challenge) note to Bruce Lee," chuckles Chin wistfully. Of course, given the magnitude of Lee's place in pop culture, only Wong's students believe their master wasn't defeated outright. Few beyond the martial arts community remember Wong, who only recently retired from teaching in the San Francisco area. So what really happened? "To me, you can say it went both ways," recalls Chin. "Wong Jack Man was trapped by a window showcase. He fell and Bruce Lee got on top of him and that ended the fight. Wong Jack Man said he didn't give up. He said he got trapped in that showcase. It was just an accident." Furthermore, Bruce Lee wasn't the first to teach non-Chinese. Non-Chinese students dot the lineages of plenty of other styles from the same period. "I don't think it had anything to do with 'don't teach the gwailo (white ghost, a slang for Caucasians鬼佬).' Stuff like that - it's not true. Of course, Bruce Lee tried to make himself look good, but that wasn't the case. It was strictly a match to see whose kung fu was better at that time." So, the Lee vs. Wong fight wasn't about keeping secrets. It was quite the opposite - a publicity stunt.
  • cornerhands
    posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 11:11AM [Report]
    Mike Patterson was the All Taiwan Full Contact Martial Arts Champion in 1975-1976, an all inclusive contest open to all styles and all ranks. He was the youngest champion ever in the history of the event and retired undefeated.
  • cornerhands
    posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 10:54AM [Report]
    Bruce vrs Me
    Chuck Norris
    WND

    The question probably most asked of me is: Do you think you could have beaten Bruce Lee in a professional competition?

    Many have opined about the answer. Some even indicted what I haven't said. For example, contrary to the Toronto Star's recent report, I have not admitted that I "would be no match for Lee in a real fight."

    A genius and champion

    The truth is Lee was a formidable opponent with a chiseled physique and technique. I totally enjoyed sparring and just spending time with him. He was as charismatic and friendly in the ring and at home, as he was on film. His confidence and wit were dazzling, and sometimes even debilitating to others. Saying things to others like, "A fight is not won by one punch or kick. Either learn to endure or hire a bodyguard."

    Lee was lightening fast, very agile and incredibly strong for his size. He was also a master marketer – a fact demonstrated by his ability to talk the world karate champion at the time (me) into being defeated on screen!

    However, many today don't realize he never competed professionally. If he had, I believe he would have been a world champion.

    What I taught him – what he taught me

    Bruce Lee learned from everybody. He had a very open mind. He never believed in only one martial arts style, or that one was superior. He believed that everything had strengths and weaknesses, and that we should find the strengths in each method. He worked out with me, as well as Joe Lewis and Mike Stone. He ascertained skills from all of us, as we learned also from him. And, in doing so, he added it to his repertoire of techniques, as we all did.

    When I first started working out with Bruce, he only believed in kicking below the waist, from his training in Wing Chun. I encouraged him not to limit himself and at least develop the ability to kick high, whether he used it or not. I started to do my spinning heel kicks and hitting the pads. Then Bruce started doing it. In six months he could kick as well as anyone.
  • cornerhands
    posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 10:20AM [Report]
    Nouveaux Classical Mess


    http://books.google.com/books?spell=1&q=the+straight+lead%2C+escrima%2C+not%2C+as+some+so-called+JKD&btnG=Search+Books

    "JKD is not kali, it is not escrima,
    and it is most certainly not, as some
    so-called JKD instructors have described it,
    a cluttered mess of "27 arts."


    http://books.google.com/books?spell=1&q=the+straight+lead%2C+escrima%2C+fencing%2C+boxing%2C&btnG=Search+Books

    "Nowhere in Bruce Lee's writings will you find
    notes on kali or escrima ... any arts other than
    Western fencing and boxing , and in earlier years,
    Wing Chun."


    http://books.google.com/books?id=i-gKlNJpJGEC&pg=PA169&dq=the+straight+lead,+escrima,+not,+as+some+so-called+JKD&sig=NQLFNZPMLISwYNDAt7YBiDydnQ8

    --Teri Tom, The Straight Lead, - Page 169
  • cornerhands
    posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 10:12AM [Report]
    Jeet Kune Do was a liberation for Bruce Lee.
    He came up with a system that was perfect for
    someone fast and strong. This style rules out
    being of any practical value for 99.9% of the
    general population. Even most pros don't truly
    comprehend, Jeet Kune Do, and if they actually
    would bother to do the research to learn, most
    pros still wouldn't be able to execute it properly.

    Nevertheless, Bruce Lee was criticizing classical
    Kung-fu, prior to his development of Jeet Kune Do.
    To the best of my understanding of the point he was
    trying to make, is that by limiting oneself to
    rigid practice of pre-set sequences, such as repetitive
    combinations and forms, that the student isn't fully
    prepared to defend themselves, in an actual, life-or-death
    encounter.

    In the Lee vrs Wong fight, Bruce Lee fought with
    Wing Chun, a classical style of Kung-fu. He fought
    more fiercely than Wong Jack Man, using eye gouges and
    throat strikes, but without contact. Wong was all tied
    up, deflecting, nonetheless. If that fight had been a
    sanctioned, tournament, Bruce Lee would have lost on
    the technicality, that the techniques which he used,
    were not recognized as official.

    Was Wong Jack Man so highly skilled, that he was able
    to keep Bruce Lee from landing even so much as one
    light tap to his carotid artery, or did Bruce Lee
    prove his point, without having to kill anyone?

    Bruce Lee has said that this fight is what got him to
    research more efficient methods than classical Wing
    Chun. Prior to that fight, he had already liberated
    himself from the Classical Mess, but he still was
    utilizing a classical style of Kung-fu. He ultimately
    developed a style that better suited his view, but
    for those of us who are not Bruce Lee, with his speed,
    agility, timing, and strength, we still can liberate
    ourselves from the Classical Mess, while utilizing
    a classical style of Kung-fu, just as Bruce Lee had
    done, before developing, Jeet Kune Do.
  • cornerhands
    posted on Wednesday, Apr 9, 2008 7:24AM [Report]
    Al Dacascos' - Official Site

    http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:1fJmSwGvkboJ:profile.myspace.com/index.cfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser.viewprofile%26friendID%3D302659136+al+dacascos,+wong+jack+man&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

    "In this tight group, I was the only part-Chinese in
    a group of the original ten members.

    Our focus was to learn the Northern style of Kung-Fu
    called Northern Sil-lum or Northern Pak-Pai from Professor
    Wong Jack Man, the person mentioned as the Kung-fu Instructor
    that fought Bruce Lee in that controversial fight between the
    two back in Oakland in the early 1960’s."
  • nobleterry
    posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 7:05AM [Report]
    NIce write-up. I met your sifu when I was a tiny little kid...a super long time ago...which I wrote about here on my blog. Good luck at the tournament.
  • peachey
    posted on Friday, Nov 16, 2007 4:20AM [Report]
    Thanks for sharing your opinion and insight into this incident that I've only read about on the internet.

    One can't disagree that it's possible that one of Linda Lee's main interest is to preserve the Bruce Lee mystique as a master martial artist and a man who-could-do-no-wrong. Who knows if she even knows what actually happened or did she, over the years, embellish the incident in her own mind? And after all these years, the public has accepted this very version of the events because there aren't many facts from first-hand observers.

    It's a shame that Wong Sifu was unsuccessful in getting his side of the events known and that he's felt he had to back off. I wonder if he had once been told, in no uncertain terms, to back off.

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